Either get the fuck out...

[Blazey]

or blow them all to kingdom come...This is ridiculous...stupid...no excuses anymore..either bring them home or fix the problem once and for all.. [img]mad.gif[/img]


Click me


Now they are killing their own people..is isnt about a holy war anymore..its about how many people can we kill..yeah..the word terrorist dont mean im a muslim fightin for my god..it means..im a mean sob that wants to kill as many people as i can becuase i can get away with it..catch me if you can..riiiight..we got ol saddam..but what about osama...oh wait..he didnt do anything to ol monkey face georges dad did he..noooo..he just took out OUR familes..our freinds..and is still doing it even now........If anyones beleives in GOD here..you better be praying...if not..you better be talking to whatever it is you beleive in...cause things arent getting any better..and its only a matter of time before something else happens...will george listen to us then?...maybe osama will go after senior......then we can all live normally again!

I ranted...about things i dont talk about on here..or anywhere else for that matter..thanks for listening.. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Blazey]

oh..everyone is entitled to their opinions...but please respect each other..thats all i ask...i dont start these types of discussions much..cause someone usually gets their panties in a wad..and things go bad quick.. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ..got something you want off your chest about this..post away..just dont make remarks about the others who have posted...thanks guys.. [img]graemlins/kiss.gif[/img]

[EvolutionHasBegun]

*leaves my wadded panties at the door* im going commando style now....

[SHATOUSHKA]

i agree, blazey....

in fact, for a while now, i've been amazed at all
the beheadings and threats of beheadings... what
is this? the middle ages?

how much longer is this going to continue?

this 'issue' has gone WAY BEYOND our control...
and mutated into something macabre and just
disgusting.

i could say more..... but i'll hold off....
don't wanna get me started [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[mRs.GaToR]

all the BS about the prisoners...being abused
by our people...what the hell did they do to
their own people...and others they tortured..
before they were caught? and who knows what
happened to POWs before this because we did
not have embedded reporters before...that
report everytime someone goes to the damn
bathroom...why didnt they report the abuse
that happened to our POWs in vietnam? what
about them...i have a friend who was a POW
in Nam...who was sexually, physically, and
mentally tortured while he was a prisoner...
being held in a lil cage hanging from a tree
until they wanted to rape him some more...
or make him eat rats and cockroaches...just
for fun because they could...i am a believer
in God...and i hate the idea of war...but it
is human nature...and something we have to deal
with whether we like it or not...for OUR
freedom...and honestly...*hoping im not struck
by lightning for posting this* i think they
should have done more than take pictures of
them naked...or in womens panties...they should
do to them what they did to their own people...
make them suffer a long slow death...just my
2 cents...... [img]graemlins/kiss.gif[/img] Blazey *S*

[SHATOUSHKA]

[img]eek.gif[/img] *blink blink*

[JohnUK]

I'm probably going to make myself really unpopular with this post, but here goes...

I truly wonder just how serious the US and UK governments are about catching Bin Laden. He is probably more use to them whie he is "out there" than he is captured...Having Bin Laden free and with the threat of more terrorist activity helps feed the fear and paranoia that has existed since that horrible day in September 2001...

Because of that, governments can justify a lot of things, telling us how certain things are needed for our safety...Take the US Patriot Act - I wonder if that would have been accepted as easily if Bin Laden were in captivity? In the UK, David Blunkett, the Secretary of State, is trying to extend his powers to be able to imprison any terrorist suspect, without charge for an indefinite period...

Bush and Cheney, at nearly every opportunity, tell us of links between Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden - despite the 9/11 Commission finding "no evidence" of such a link - but a free Bin Laden links the two if only on a subconscious level...

How long before there's a "link" between Iran and Bin Laden, or Syria and Bin Laden, I wonder?? (But funnily, no mention of the confirmed link between Saudi Arabia and Bin Laden...despite 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 being from Saudi Arabia...)

Add in other factors also...

There is a document called "Rebuilding America's Defences", produced by a right-wing thinktank called Projecy for the New American Century (PNAC), and written in September 2000...Some of the things it says in that document are:

- "while the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

- "Iran may well prove as large a threat to US interests as Iraq has".

It also refers to key allies such as the UK as "the most effective and efficient means of exercising American global leadership". It describes peacekeeping missions as "demanding American political leadership rather than that of the UN". It says "even should Saddam pass from the scene", US bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain permanently... as "Iran may well prove as large a threat to US interests as Iraq has". It spotlights China for "regime change", saying "it is time to increase the presence of American forces in SE Asia".

And some of the names that were members of this PNAC thinktank - Dick Cheney (now vice-president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), Jeb Bush (George Bush's younger brother) and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff).

Now all that is background, and I hope you're still with me this far...

In late September and early October 2001, leaders of Pakistan's two Islamist parties negotiated Bin Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for 9/11. However, a US official said, significantly, that "casting our objectives too narrowly" risked "a premature collapse of the international effort if by some lucky chance Mr Bin Laden was captured".

Lucky chance???? Does that sound to anyone as if the capture of Bin Laden was really hoped for?

The US chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Myers, went so far as to say that "the goal has never been to get Bin Laden" (AP, April 5 2002). The whistleblowing FBI agent Robert Wright told ABC News (December 19 2002) that FBI headquarters wanted no arrests. And in November 2001 the US airforce complained it had had al-Qaida and Taliban leaders in its sights as many as 10 times over the previous six weeks, but had been unable to attack because they did not receive permission quickly enough (Time Magazine, May 13 2002). None of this evidence, all of which comes from sources already in the public domain, is compatible with the idea of a real, determined war on terrorism.

The evidence does, however, fall into place when set against the PNAC blueprint. From this it seems that the so-called "war on terrorism" is being used largely as cover for achieving wider strategic objectives. Indeed Tony Blair himself suggested this when he said to the British House of Commons liaison committee: "To be truthful about it, there was no way we could have got the public consent to have suddenly launched a campaign on Afghanistan but for what happened on September 11" (Times, July 17 2002).

Similarly Rumsfeld was so determined to obtain a rationale for an attack on Iraq that on 10 separate occasions he asked the CIA to find evidence linking Iraq to 9/11; the CIA repeatedly came back empty-handed (Time Magazine, May 13 2002).

In fact, 9/11 offered an extremely convenient opportunity to put the PNAC plan into action. The evidence is strong that plans for military action against Afghanistan and Iraq were in hand well before 9/11. A report prepared for the US government from the Baker Institute of Public Policy stated in April 2001 that "the US remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a destabilising influence to... the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East". Submitted to Vice-President Cheney's energy task group, the report recommended that because this was an unacceptable risk to the US, "military intervention" was necessary (Sunday Herald, October 6 2002).

Similar evidence exists in regard to Afghanistan. The BBC reported (September 18 2001) that Niaz Niak, a former Pakistan foreign secretary, was told by senior American officials at a meeting in Berlin in mid-July 2001 that "military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October". Until July 2001 the US government saw the Taliban regime as a source of stability in Central Asia that would enable the construction of hydrocarbon pipelines from the oil and gas fields in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan, to the Indian Ocean. But, confronted with the Taliban's refusal to accept US conditions, the US representatives told them "either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs" (Inter Press Service, November 15 2001).

(On a slightly off-topic note, over 60% of the heroin available in the US and UK now comes from Afghanistan, grown by the warlords that the US and UK asked to support their toppling of the Taliban regime...a small price to pay?)

I could also quote some facts and figures about oil and gas supply, but I don't want to drown this post in statistics...

Overall, given the background of the blueprint created by figures who are now forming policy, it seems to me that Bin Laden as a "free man" is serving a very useful purpose...

Other things about the continued freedom of Bin laden are that we are asked to believe that he is scuttling from cave to cave in Afghanistan, or hiding out in the mountains, while UN forces constantly look to track him down...And yet with all the satellite technology available - supposedly able to see a pigeon land on a rooftop - we can't track down Bin Laden and his followers??

Also, take into account that Bin Laden has a chronic, and progressive, kidney condition that requires regular dialysis treatment - not something easily available when sprinting from cave to cave with a host of American soldiers on your tail...

Indeed, there is a report from the staff of a private hospital in Qatar that Bin Laden was admitted for dialysis treatment in July 2001...While he was there, it seems he had a visit from the local CIA Director in Qatar...Now given that even then he was one of America's wanted men - for the World Trade Center bombings in 1993, if nothing else - why wasn't he arrested on the spot??? I wonder what they would have talked about..."So, Mr Bin Laden - what are your plans for the next few months?", perhaps???

(There is a link for this article, which I can't find right now, and time is running short before I have to go to work - bear with me, and I'll post it later!)

One other thing before I finish (and no doubt be attacked with more vigour than Bin Laden has ever been!)...

There was a report on Iranian State Radio back in February that Bin Laden HAD been captured "some time ago" by US forces - something that has been denied by the US...

Let's just speculate for a moment that indeed he has been captured - what would keeping it quiet achieve?

Well...continued fear in peoples minds that he might strike again, the replacement of the "Bogeyman" in their thoughts by the spectre of Bin Laden...

Oh...maybe if Bush is behind in the polls around late October or early November, wouldn't it be a nice rabbit to pull out of a hat to announce the capture of Bin Laden to potential voters around 2 or 3 weeks before the election? Kerry may as well pack his bags and move to Afghanistan...

I know that sounds cynical, and I don't believe that Bin Laden HAS been captured, but if there's a major announcement at that time, I'll kick this thread back up...

For what it's worth, my best guess is that Bin Laden is nowhere in Afghanistan...Maybe he's in somewhere "neutral" like Jordan, where he can get the dialysis treatment he needs to keep him alive...Or back home in Saudi Arabia - a country that the US and UK have shown thay are not prepared to challenge too closely...

I know this won't be a popular post - but these are my thoughts for right or wrong...Bin Laden is evil, and I supported the action in Afghanistan to find him at the time, unlike my feelings about the Iraq invasion...

It was only as I read more about it, and discovered things like the document produced by PNAC that my thoughts changed...

Bin Laden will never be an ally of the West (not since the Russians left Afghanistan, anyway) - but he is proving to be very useful to them in a twisted way, nonetheless....

[demon chloe]

Well, I really believe it is important to remember that what we read.... ANY NEWS MEDIA, is skewed. Just because something is printed in the NY Times doesn't mean it's the truth. Just because something is printed in my small town paper, doesn't make it the truth either. Far from it.

Large newspaper corps are owned by bigger fish. Fish that have their own agenda.


Just always be wary of what is put out there as "fact".... Could it, perhaps, be someone's version of fact?

[JohnUK]

Very true, Amy...

And it's pretty much what I've been saying for some time...

Don't necessarily accept what the media tells you...

Look at Fox TV - one of the biggest supporters of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq...and owned by Rupert Murdoch, one of the biggest contributors to Republican party funds...Fox is as likely to present a critical news story of the wars as Piers Morgan, when he was editor of the Daily Mirror here in the UK, and ardently anti war, was to run a story praising Bush or Blair...

That's why it's important to look at a range of news sources, read as widely as possible...and THINK FOR YOURSELF! We should be constantly questioning what we read and hear in the media and in reports - if enough people do that, then we might actually get to the FACTS...

And what is just as important as what we hear, is what we DON'T hear in the media - the stories that are "buried"...It's often those stories that are not easily accessible are the ones that give the greater insight into what is really happening...

Nest time, there's a major news story like the opening of Saddam's trial, have a look around and see what stories get the briefest of mentions - very often, they'll be the most interesting... [img]wink.gif[/img]

[Cowboy83]

Here's a Military Man's perspective on things......
America WAKE UP!
That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 and maybe it was but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.
It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students
attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the
world's most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign US embassy set the stage for the events
to follow for the next 23 years.
America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Viet Nam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.
America's military had been decimated and downsized/right sized since the end of the Viet Nam war. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the
start.
Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.
In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63 people. The alarm went off again and America hit the SnoozeButton once more.
Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US
Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut. 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.
Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.
The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gates of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.
Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid. Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the Snooze Alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US soil is continually attacked.
Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.
The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie,
Scotland in 1988, killing 259.
America wants to treat these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.
Europe... the Wake Up alarm is louder and louder.
The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.
The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.
Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women. A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35
yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500.
The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively. They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision, they kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.
The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.
And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant
attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.
In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from everyhigh official in government over what they knew and what they didn't know.
But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979. The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war.
I think we have been in a war for the past 23 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough.
America has to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to hit the Snooze Button again and roll over and go back to sleep. We have to make the terrorists know that in the words of Admiral Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor that all they have done is to awaken a sleeping giant."